In the last scene of The Last of Us Season 2, there’s a flashback. When Abby faces off with Ellie about the aquarium murders, the scene suddenly switches to three days before Abby was found at the WLF stadium. This change in perspective seems permanent and suggests a significant shift for Season 3. However, creators Craig Mazin and Neil Druckmann haven’t yet revealed specific details about what Season 3 of the series will entail.
At a press conference about the Season 2 finale, Mazin and Druckmann were cautious with revealing details for Season 3. While the ending and certain environmental hints may indicate a larger threat on the horizon, the showrunners assure fans that beloved characters from Jackson, including those who have previously died in the storyline, will not be written off just yet. In addition to discussing the finale at length, Mazin and Druckmann also delve into the reasoning behind certain narrative choices in Season 2, such as why they chose to save certain animals from a tragic fate and their decision to maintain Jesse’s death. Furthermore, they ponder the prospect of a flashback or spin-off focusing on Joel’s life following Sarah and preceding Ellie.
What is the significant moment from this season’s game that left a personal impact on each of you, as it will be translated onto the screen in our upcoming episodes, and what makes it so special for you?
Neil Druckmann: I believe I’ll opt for this scene, as it holds the greatest significance in our narrative. It’s the poignant finale between Joel and Ellie that I refer to as their last shared moment, symbolized by the final bite of an apple. Their conversation about the depths of their relationship, the capacity for pain, and the journey towards forgiveness despite their past ordeals, encapsulates the essence of our story, looking both at its past and where it eventually leads. Getting this scene right was crucial.
Craig Mazin: My favorite show moment to watch wasn’t necessarily the same as what I was excited about recreating. I believe the scene I was anticipating the most was Ellie singing “Take on Me” to Dina. Our series does delve into some intense, dark themes and confronts harsh realities. However, scenes of warmth, love, joy, and tranquility are the ones that I appreciate the most. The moment I felt both excited and apprehensive about bringing to life was Joel’s death scene.
What stood out wasn’t merely how Joel met his end, but rather the emotional impact of Ashley Johnson’s performance in the game. Witnessing her reaction to that event was incredibly moving and created an emotional bond with this character that was unique from our connection to Ellie in Season 1 and the initial game. Prior to these experiences, we felt connected to Joel as a character due to his being loved after such a long time without love. However, now our connection to Ellie has evolved into something entirely different. The scene I was most eager to see unfold was that one, but watching “Take on Me” was truly a delightful and joyful experience. It was an exceptional day.
How would you describe the unique appeal of discovering the narrative of “The Last of Us” for those who are experiencing it for the first time through the series, without any previous exposure to the game?
I became thoroughly engrossed in the game, discovering a certain charm in newness. The initial encounter with such experiences will always leave a deeper impression, it’s just the way it is. But there’s another kind of pleasure that arises from repetition. As for how many times I’ve watched The Lord of the Rings extended edition, let’s say it’s close to a thousand, so… And if you were to ask us to recite the trilogy in order, dialogue and all, that would be delightful. It’s truly remarkable.
The first encounter with it was something completely unexpected, and it stood out even more. Our aim is for the series to captivate both those who have played the game and those who haven’t, so they don’t find themselves thinking “What on Earth is this?” Instead, we hope that this will inspire them to try playing the game themselves. In an ideal world, everyone who watches the show would own a controller, and conversely, everyone with a controller would be tuned in to the show. We understand that achieving such a perfect overlap is unlikely, but it’s a dream worth striving for.
Druckmann: I haven’t gone through the process of creating any of this before, so discovering it brings me a lot of pleasure. When I began collaborating with Craig, he was able to approach it with fresh eyes since he hadn’t been through the initial creation process. Instead, his challenge was recreating it for a second time. That’s why I find it fascinating to listen to people delve deep into these topics and share their insights, thoughts, and struggles.
A new form of pleasure I’ve discovered is listening to discussions about adaptations, especially from individuals who’ve seen both versions, and observing their contrasts and comparisons, as they express strong views on our changes. There’s something truly captivating about it, seeing their expectations versus reality, and witnessing their emotional journey through this ride. I find it intriguing to observe the diverse responses from various audiences.
1) In what manner did the storyline unfold for Ellie and Dina’s relationship, and does it serve as a key foundation for the series moving forward? Alternatively, might Joel’s influence continue to guide Ellie in upcoming installments?
In essence, Joel is a constant presence, similar to Sarah, Riley, and others who have been there throughout. Henry and Sam are also not forgotten. The actions of everyone around Ellie shape her journey. Abby’s story carries the weight of her father’s memory. The narrative revolves heavily around ghosts. However, the relationship between Ellie and Dina takes center stage in this season, as it unfolds from its beginning to an intriguing conclusion, given that Dina is pregnant, and their commitment to each other adds layers of complexity to the story we now understand.
Here’s another way to put it: There’s more to this tale that needs exploration, and without a doubt, Abby is the protagonist in her narrative. In every story, Kaitlyn Dever takes on the role of the hero. To put it simply, if you have Kaitlyn Dever, you utilize Kaitlyn Dever. As for where we’re heading next, I can only hint that it will always revolve around key characters like Ellie and Dina, or perhaps Abby’s bond with Owen, or new connections. If you’ve played the game, you likely understand what I mean. Essentially, every event is shrouded by Joel’s influence, both the actions he took against Abby and the sacrifices he made for Ellie, which will forever remain significant.
Is there any chance we could unravel some of the enigmatic aspects of Joel’s past, particularly the series of events that instilled fear in others, which transpired between Sarah’s demise and his encounter with Ellie? Might there be a season or show someday that delves into Joel’s life during that period?
Mazin: Spin-off! [Laughs]
Druckmann: It can be beneficial to keep some aspects vague, allowing the audience to contribute their creativity to the story. However, there are instances where we delve into those mysteries when they significantly impact our current narrative. So, in essence, we should not rule out any possibilities entirely.
Mazin: It’s clear that we delved quite deeply into depicting an event from that era. I agree with Neil, we wouldn’t rule out future explorations. This season was challenging because it revolved around such a traumatic incident: Joel’s death. Once Joel dies, the impact is so profound that there’s less space for exploring different paths. We mainly focus on the consequences of his death and the events leading up to it. However, I believe next season might offer more leeway.
As you know, we enjoy taking detours in our stories, and Indonesia is one of our favorite destinations. So, perhaps there’s a detour to Joel and Tommy causing chaos in the Indonesian countryside. Who knows? We’ll see.
Druckmann: To be honest, I never thought we’d end up with a surprise like this when we were writing the season. You just can’t foresee everything.
How did fresh viewpoints from the new characters, such as Gail and Eugene, enable you to delve deeper into the emotional aspects of the game that weren’t previously explored?
Absolutely, she’s a therapist [laughs]. We maintain a list of tasks that are more manageable in video games and those that are simpler on television. One significant item on the “easier on television list” is altering perspective. In games, we’re bound to the character we control, but in cut scenes, perspectives can change. These shifts are limited by design, as they must be. Essentially, we are nothing but cut scenes. To provide a main character with a platform to express their thoughts openly without resorting to strange methods, we developed a character for that purpose.
Occasionally on TV shows, characters open up their inner feelings to others, which isn’t common in real life. Instead, I find myself drawn more to scenes where characters deceive each other. To elaborate on this point, Gail’s actions in the show offer a chance for us to decipher Joel’s emotional state and the narrative he constructs around himself. What fears does he harbor most? What does he think about his own actions? These questions help set up a pivotal moment where A) he must face the truth head-on, and B) must bear the consequences of that truth.
Druckmann: It also served as an opportunity for those characters to get entangled in the heart of the major struggle between our primary characters, Joel and Ellie, as Gail keenly observes. This peculiar dynamic between the characters adds depth to their relationship, creating a platform for the audience to empathize with the emotional turmoil they experience together.
In the final scene, it’s revealed that Jesse chose not to dispatch a team to Seattle. Why was the creative choice made to portray Jesse as someone who frequently disagrees with Ellie and leans more towards being a “resistant-to-change” character, rather than the more adaptable Jesse from the game?
In the game, I wouldn’t use that description for him. During our discussions about how Jesse was going to vote, we both shared a belief that he would choose to protect Jackson. Jesse is primarily focused on the community he identifies with, rather than the individual or justice that seems unrealistic and unnecessary to characters who prioritize practicality. There’s a common ground between Jesse and Joel, as I believe in similar situations, Joel would have made the same choice.
I was impressed by how dedicated Jesse was to his Eagle Scout role, and the show emphasized this even more. He’s a council member, but we highlight his potential succession as Maria’s eventual replacement. He’s seen as the one who will manage everything. This quality inspires respect and encourages us to emulate him. Instead, Ellie appears lost in her own anxieties and instincts, which seem shabby compared to Jesse’s ideal image.
One aspect of the last episode that truly resonated with me was the powerful scene between Ellie and Jesse, when she learns about his vote. Her argument struck a chord with me so profoundly that I found myself thinking, “Well, there goes another complex character.” This is because her observation about his perceived morality is astute. It’s not that what she’s doing is right, but rather, his belief in his own moral compass can be questionable and somewhat arbitrary. He presents as noble and selfless within the boundaries of the wooden fence, yet outside of it, he shows no compassion, even towards children. I appreciate this portrayal because it reflects a truth about human nature – few of us are truly unflawed, only the actual Boy Scouts are Eagle Scouts.
Instead of asking, “How did you land on the moment between Mel and Ellie in the show as opposed to how it plays out in the game?”, you could ask: “What influenced your decision to depict the scene between Mel and Ellie from the series differently than what we see in the game?
Mazin: In the game, Owen is revealed as Ellie’s father. However, in the show, we’ve taken a different approach, leaving the identity of her father uncertain. The manner of their confrontation also differs; in the game, Ellie ends up killing Mel in self-defense after she attacks, while in the show it’s more about unfortunate consequences or collateral damage. I thought I could add a darker tone to this event, so I suggested it to Neil and we both agreed. [Laughs]
Druckmann originally mentioned it sounded darker before I actually read it, and I recall thinking “How could it be darker?” But upon reading it, I realized he was right – it was indeed darker. At times, we need to delve into such depths. For this particular scene, if you’re empathizing with Ellie, it was crucial to make you feel troubled, as that’s the impact of collateral damage.
Mazin: Given that Mel is a doctor, it’s intriguing to contemplate how she would handle that situation. It takes me back to the essence of who someone is. I find it incredibly captivating because she’s young, but this is how it should be. After all, there are young doctors too. The scene also evoked a deep sense of remorse and defeat. It’s as if you think, oh my goodness, am I still on this path with you? I believe it’s crucial for viewers to understand that Ellie isn’t taking things lightly, like she’s saying, “I’m okay, whatever. Let’s move on for Abby.” Instead, this shatters her. Bella’s performance in the scene is simply extraordinary to me, and Ariela [Barer] is no exception.
Ellie’s been driven by her need for revenge. Does that fully disappear when she kills Mel and Owen?
Druckmann: If we omit the term “fully,” I concur with your assertion. However, there’s a persistent issue that in our discussions, this problem has been likened to drug addiction. The point is not whether one can overcome it or let go of it, but rather, can they completely break free from it?
In her journey through Seattle, Ellie’s attention is primarily fixed on Abby. Even when Dina shares their names, it’s Abby’s name that sticks because it was Abby who performed the action in question. This fits, but it’s interesting to note that instead of directly saying “Abby, you’re going to die,” Ellie warns all of them with a strong exclamation: “You’re all going to effin’ die.” There seems to be a hint of prophecy in this statement, suggesting that Ellie may have unwittingly cast a curse she could no longer control.
It’s evident to her that Mel shouldn’t have met such a fate. Mel never harmed her, nor did he restrain her. Mel didn’t cause harm to Joel. Prior to Ellie entering the room, Mel was attempting to assist Dina and was appalled by Abby’s actions, yet unfortunately, he couldn’t prevent them. Ellie asks, “So she gets to live?,” to which Tommy replies, “You’ll have to make peace with that.” Ellie responds, “I suppose I will.” This is intriguing because what if the situation alters, and you don’t need to accept that? What comes next? I believe there might be more to the story.
Could you discuss finding a way to transition the perspective from Ellie to Abby in a manner that is both unexpected and impactful, similar to the game, all while subtly introducing elements of Abby’s backstory within the climax of the narrative?
Druckmann: I believe we frequently discuss what we’re committing to the audience in the future. For instance, showing Joel in the final scene was crucial for us because it sets a direction for where we’re headed next. If we had ended the season somewhere else, say a few moments before, I feel we wouldn’t be setting the right expectation of what this series is about. Next season, we’re promising you an epic scale of events to come. However, the story involving Joel and Ellie will also be significant, tying back into everything you’ve seen so far.
Given that the season finale shares a resemblance with how Ellie and Abby’s narratives intertwine in the game, could we anticipate that Ellie’s story might continue in the same vein in Season 3? Might the third season be structured like Abby’s part of the game, which delves into her perspective?
Mazin: I recall conversations where people would ask, “So, what about Joel and when he passes away?” I’d chuckle, thinking, hang on, do you mean ‘when’ as in a certainty or ‘if’? The story will unfold, and it will take its course. Even though I might think I know how things will play out now, I’ve learned that two weeks from now we could have a completely different perspective on the plot.
To answer the question everyone seems to be asking directly, I won’t give a straight answer [laughs]. However, let me clarify that Kaitlyn Dever, Bella Ramsey, Isabela Merced, and many other characters who are currently deceased in the storyline are not done with us yet.
Druckmann: Whether you see them on screen or not, their presence will be there throughout.
You and you delivered. Do you have any promises or expectations for the infected for Season 3?
Mazin: At present, there are no specific assurances, except perhaps that those who have played the games may now understand that we don’t overlook significant, emotionally impactful scenes in the game. In fact, we are adding new emotional moments, particularly this season, such as the attack on Jackson and similar events. However, when it comes to the major plot points, I hope it’s clear that we stay attentive.
Druckmann: “Big things” is the key word.
In contrast to the game, the TV series avoids depicting the brutal animal encounters that take place upon Ellie’s arrival in Seattle, including the demise of Shimmer and Alice, a member of the WLF canine unit. Was the portrayal of animal violence too intense for you?
Druckmann: I think Craig is traumatized about what he did to dogs.
In general, a person might only encounter one instance of a violent act against a dog throughout their lifetime. There are two fundamental guidelines in Hollywood: first, never invest your own money; second, never harm an animal, especially a dog. Let’s discuss Alice now. In the game, when Ellie arrives at the aquarium, a dog attacks her, and she ends up killing it. This dog is not familiar to us. I won’t delve into what follows in future seasons, but we faced a situation where numerous gruesome events took place. Moreover, since this is live-action, the depiction of violence becomes significantly more graphic due to the proximity between viewers and the actors, making it quite unsettling.
It was troubling for us to see the fate of Mel and Owen, and the recent events with Ellie were also distressing. This discussion came up when we first showed a radiation burn victim in Chernobyl. The camera moved slowly, revealing everything. And we thought, “We have this footage, but why do we need to show so much of it?” It felt like we were causing discomfort and perhaps even becoming voyeuristic, so we chose to be careful. However, in hindsight, that moment, which made me feel uncomfortable initially, ended up feeling right. [Laughs]
Druckmann: Occasionally, reintroducing an element initially removed from the game necessitates taking out something already included. In this case, the scene where Ellie floats to Seraphite Island and nearly faces a lynching was originally part of the game but was taken out due to production timing considerations. With these three distressing events in succession, we felt it might be excessive.
Was there anything particularly difficult about creating the ending scene, and did we ever consider a different conclusion at any point?
Druckmann: The response is consistently affirmative since we consider all ideas. However, nothing specific springs to mind because whatever we considered didn’t last long. This conclusion seemed like a logical finale for the season. Perhaps your recollection differs, Craig.
Mazin: We were open to altering the conclusion. We discussed it extensively and weighed all possibilities. In the end, I recall saying something like, “Isn’t this element inherent to how this story unfolds?” It’s simply part of the story’s genetic makeup. This implies that as a TV show, we need to take chances, and HBO supports us in taking such risks. However, they also realize that our show will change with each season, which can be challenging, especially for a hit series.
In the given text, when Joel explains to Ellie why he saved her, he says, “Because I love you.” This line was likely included as a way to emphasize the deep bond and connection between Joel and Ellie, which is a significant aspect of their relationship in the source material. However, it’s true that these words are not commonly expressed explicitly between them in the original story, making this moment more poignant and impactful when it occurs.
Mazin emphasized that the most crucial aspect of his declaration of love wasn’t just the words, but rather the underlying sentiment, “In a way you can’t understand.” This means that he didn’t grasp it before, but now he does. If Ellie were to have a child one day, this is the kind of selfless love he was referring to – a love so profound that it surpasses personal desires or relationships for the sake of the child and their future. This is a type of love Ellie hasn’t experienced yet, and Mazin wanted to make it clear when she accused him of being selfish.
Druckmann: This also reflects the process of adaptation, as Ellie is more eloquent, more openly vulnerable compared to Troy Baker’s Joel, resulting in subtle differences that seemed fitting. It’s challenging for me to envision that line being spoken by the character Joel from the game.
How did you ensure that Isaac became a well-developed character who was not just a stereotypical mustache-twirling villain, but rather an abhorrent individual symbolizing severe tribalism and malevolent power, while still maintaining depth and complexity?
As a film critic, I find myself captivated by the unwavering convictions of our characters, their devotion to these beliefs sometimes driving them to the very edge. This fervor, often rooted in love, propels them into extraordinary circumstances. Take Isaac, for instance, who zealously supports the WLF. Ironically, his actions, despite being directed against fascism, may be perceived as fascistic. Yet, upon delving deeper into his motivations, one might find oneself questioning, “Perhaps there’s some merit in his actions.”
We all have a tendency to rationalize heinous acts when we believe they serve the greater good or protect our own interests. It becomes a twisted justification: “Our actions are justified because they are necessary evils, but if others perform similar acts, we swiftly condemn them for their actions.” Isaac’s character presents an intriguing exploration of this human complexities.
Mazin expressed great joy in collaborating with Jeffrey [Wright] and contributing to various aspects of the project. He believes this collaboration sets a promising tone for the upcoming season. There are numerous questions, including those from the audience, that he wants to clarify. Essentially, he aims to confirm that these questions will be addressed. So, what’s going on? How did the war begin? Why? What led to the creation of the Seraphites? What happened to her? What are Isaac’s intentions? What transpired at the end of Episode 7? What was the explosion about? In essence, everything will be explained.
Was there a thoughtful reason for changing Tommy’s storyline in Season 2, and will he likely have a larger part in upcoming episodes?
In the series, there was an opportunity to insert a lengthy period where Ellie needed to endure silently and reflect, but due to her impulsive nature, she rashly decides to head northwest towards Seattle to confront Abby. It becomes clear that unlike Joel, Tommy has been striving to avoid leading a violent life. He has formed connections with others, gotten married, and started a family. He is also tasked with protecting the town. He is selfless and essentially a good person, isn’t he?
Instead of having him impulsively rush out to take revenge without much information, we decided to grant Ellie and Dina the freedom to act. However, we now understand that Tommy is currently in Seattle since he and Jesse went there to rescue them. Keep in mind that Tommy is a veteran who has experienced war, and it’s also known that for a while, he and Joel were involved in some questionable activities. This situation presents an opportunity to explore a different aspect of Tommy, and now his focus is on fulfilling the promise he made to his brother: “I won’t let anything bad happen to that kid.
How does Jesse’s death affect , and did you ever consider not killing Jesse?
Druckmann: We never considered any other outcome. His destiny had always been set in stone. Of course, such an event would have a profound effect, given he’s the baby’s father, as well as a close friend and a past lover. Absolutely, it will carry significant weight.
The scenario is intriguing due to Ellie, but it’s Abby who ultimately pulls the trigger. From Episode 1 onwards, we have invested significantly in Joel looking at someone and saying, “Hey, kiddo,” not to Ellie, but to Dina. This is how we introduce her character. We realize that Dina shares a strong bond with Joel, as he mentions it to Gail, describing their relationship as if she’s my child or something.
In simpler terms,
Dina has feelings for Joel and doesn’t carry the burdens that Ellie does. She was unaware of his past actions; instead, she encountered a kind man who is a contractor. Dina was with Joel when he died, shared his suffering, and sought Abby to bring justice following that event. The question now is, who will Dina hold responsible? I believe that focusing on blame can lead one astray. Since Ellie informed her about Joel’s actions, it alters Dina’s perspective. As for Jesse’s death, it will likely impact Dina, but we need to observe how this unfolds.
What is the one additional thing that you are each prepared to tease for Season 3?
Mazin: [Laughs]
Druckmann: There’s a certain crane that you see in Episode 7. That’s very telling.
The Last of Us Season 2 is available to stream on Max. A third season is in development.
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2025-05-26 06:01